Episode 14
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Welcome back to the Women in Writing Podcast. I have a wonderful guest today. Her name is Roxanne. She's from Australia, and she was up at 4. 30 in the morning to record the episode with me. So very, very special. I feel so honored. You should stay here and listen to the whole episode if you're interested in becoming a ghostwriter, helping others to write their memoirs, their nonfiction books, because that's exactly what she was Developing from her journalism career, super exciting.
So listen to her story.
Welcome to the wonderful Ruxanne. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, thank you so much for having me, [00:01:00] Kristina. I'm looking forward to our chat. And I just have to say that a big thank you because you're up at 4. 30 in the morning to meet with me like that's amazing.
Oh talking about words and writing is my jam. So I'm more than happy to take myself off to the garage while the rest of the family is sleeping so that we can have an amazing chat and hopefully inspire some. More women to get into writing or to embrace their writing endeavors even more.
So more than happy to do that for you. Thank you so much. Definitely. Definitely. So do you just want to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your story and how you've got, oh yeah, sure, sure. It's funny. I don't often talk a lot about myself. My work always revolves around talking about other people, so I'll give it my best shot.
So yeah, so I have been. I've been a writer since 2007. I guess professionally you would call it since [00:02:00] 2007. But basically I've always found comfort in words. Since I was growing up, I was always keeping diaries and journals and they're quite funny to look back on now. But I guess they were my way of.
Reflecting on the world and kind of processing what I was seeing. So yeah and obviously had my nose in a book for most of my childhood as well. Definitely very connected to the power of words and yes, when I was growing up, I decided to pursue journalism as a career and worked in print media for I guess full time for the better part of 10 years before I was made redundant, there were a lot of changes with how media as an industry was progressing and with.
The internet coming in and more online news and the shifting nature of content, it really, yeah, it shook up the whole industry and it was very hard to keep a [00:03:00] job as a journalist. That was devastating because words were my career. I worked in a very, like in a rural. Community.
Print media jobs were as rare as hen's teeth. So pretty hard to find and to hold on to. It took a lot of soul searching for me to figure out what I was going to do. With myself next by that stage I was married and I had two young children. So I think my oldest was at kindergarten at the time.
So I was like, okay I can't really just up and move. To a city or to move would be a big deal with a young family who, you know, my, my daughter was already connecting with her own friends and my husband had a long standing career here. So I had to really think about what I was going to do and.
Initially, I did move into freelancing I thought, okay I'll just take my skill set and I'll just start freelancing and, do what I [00:04:00] have been doing, but on my own terms. So that's how I shaped it in my mind. And because I was fortunate because I did have such a a long career in print media and being a smaller community, everyone kind of knew me and knew what I did.
So it made it, I think, easier for me to just switch over to freelancing and for maybe two or three years after that, I was still working for print publications, interestingly. But I had shifted from newspapers to magazines. And I was there working for a couple of more lifestyle y magazines, some online e zines and doing some spot work with um, blogging and things like that.
So it was really interesting to have a bit of a taste of so many different kinds of platforms after being in, in one medium for so long. So I really loved that. And obviously the opportunities to interview. International [00:05:00] personalities and and bigger name people through that as well was really exciting.
But that's, that, yeah, that obviously wasn't the driver for me. Again, it was just coming back to getting people's stories out there is always what's driven me. And yeah, so then I landed in books in 2007. 17. I was starting to feel, even in, in freelancing there's a new cycle.
So anyone who writes for media will understand, there's a new cycle, there's different events that come around the same time every year, and you've got to find fresh angles. And, how can we make this exciting and interesting for the readers? And I think I just got a little bit tired of.
Of the repetition of that. So I was thinking, there's something else and I was really in a rush about what I was going to do with myself. Because I wasn't, I was not for the first time ever, probably I wasn't really a hundred percent content with what I was doing in my work.
And it was [00:06:00] a lady, a woman who I met at a business conference a women's business conference. who suggested to me that maybe I should look at books. And I went, Oh and my mind immediately went to like novels and fiction writing. And I went, no, there's no way. Like my brain's just not wired that way.
So yeah, so then I thought about it a bit more and she said you write people's stories. Why don't you write people's books? And I went, oh my goodness. Like, how did I not think of that before? Yeah, so I literally just jumped right in and gave it a go. So I found my comfort zone with.
Writing the first book for a dear friend's husband. So he had his own business and he's Oh yeah, I've always wanted a book for my business. And I went, all right would you give me a go? And yeah, so he jumped on board and, I had to find my way with how do you charge? How long do these [00:07:00] things take?
Like it was a whole new scale from, say a 500, 000, a 500 or a thousand word news article or feature article. It was like, this is a whole other level. So I really had to try and feel into what felt good to me what felt like a fair exchange, particularly cause I was, this was my first book.
I was learning the ropes and, while I did have all of that experience I couldn't go in, and charge the same rates as the people who had been doing it for 10 years. You'd been writing in books for 10 years, so it was interesting trying to find my feet in that perspective. But the actual work itself, I, I literally fell straight in and I loved it.
And I'm like, this is exactly what I need because it's a whole new challenge. Long form writing, I had always been long winded when I, even in print media and. The editors used to give me flack for it all the time because I wouldn't have [00:08:00] too many words. Yes, that's right. So I'd get so excited and I'd be like, oh, but people have to know this and people have to know this.
And then the editors would be shaking their heads going no. Cut it back. I'm like, exactly the same. And , I also tend to write really long sentences. I'm not sure if you're the same. Yes. Yeah. A lot of people say oh, can you like, that's one sentence, you can just break it down into two.
And I was like, yeah, you can, but why? Why would you? That's right. Yeah. So one of my best friends who I work with she, we actually started in, in the same newspaper together. She's my editor now for my clients and and I can hear her voice in the back of my head. So once I finished the first draft, I go back and I'm like, okay, now which sentences can I cut in half?
And then I'll just, put us in a full stop in, or maybe I might just reword it slightly so that it's not long winded. So she's slowly training me. But yeah, it's it's been an incredible journey and I guess from even from freelancing and seeing how much I could [00:09:00] earn as a freelancer compared to what's possible as a ghostwriter has been chalk and cheese as well.
It's been, yeah, it's been really interesting to, to get to where I am and Now I have a couple of awards under my belt as well, which I'm really proud of some for my book and some for the business itself. So it just goes to show what's possible. I think when you know that being creative and being a writer doesn't mean that you have to forego.
Making really great money in order to pursue your passion. So yeah, I'm really excited to be able to share that message with your listeners today, Christina, and hopefully, get them to look at how much they're charging and see if maybe they could up that a little bit more.
A hundred percent, because. Especially I feel like when you're starting out and I had that conversation with my last podcast guest who started out like she said, um, basically when she started out, like she was like, [00:10:00] underpricing herself and I think like, all of us did that especially, maybe it's a little bit of a female thing as well, but oh, am I worthy enough, like imposter syndrome and all of that, but you don't want to overcharge people, but obviously you want to get paid fair for your talent, right?
But it's definitely a tricky one, question, do you charge per project or per hour? Oh, I definitely charge per project. I think I found very quickly that it is really, I guess it's easier for the client as well as me. So I don't have to keep track of my time. With long form, such as a book you can come across unexpected research or sometimes everything's handed to you.
To work with. So it really is hard to Provide an estimate per hour. So what I did was I really took a look at, okay what's going to be the average of the hours that I'm going to put in? What's the size of the book? Are they going for something around the 50, 000 word mark? [00:11:00] Are we looking closer to.
A Prince Harry size book, or are we looking for something smaller that's that's going to be easily digested in one sitting for the reader. So when looking at the sizes, I've basically picked a small, medium and large kind of word count range and and use that as the guideline for a package price.
Cause that way I feel like. It gives it gives you clarity, you know exactly what to charge, but it also gives the client clarity as well and a bit more certainty and trust. So when they make that decision they know that they're not going to get. Slapped at the end of the day with, a couple of extra thousand dollars because you've run over time or something like that.
I feel like it helps to put them at ease and that makes their decision easier to sign up. So yeah. Makes sense. Totally. But you never had to basically rely on like a professional agency that like, it's like the middleman between you and the client, right? [00:12:00] No, I have never done that. So I've had a few that have been suggested to me along the way.
But I think I'm just a little bit too independent I like to go it on my own. But I have been fortunate that ever since my friend's husband gave me a go in 2017, I have had, yeah, back to back ghostwriting clients since then. It has been interesting to see. I think just making sure that you're giving your all to each and every one of your clients is going to work obviously well for you for word of mouth and getting the message out there because as a ghostwriter, you sign non disclosure agreements with all of your clients.
So you can't jump out there and go, Hey, I'm working with this amazing woman. She sold her business for eight figures and la. You really can't, yeah, you can't. Use names, you can't use too much too much of identifying examples, even no matter how excited you are about your client.
And so you really have [00:13:00] to rely on that, that word of mouth and obviously marketing yourself and your skills which was probably the biggest learning hurdle, the biggest lesson for me being a journalist, it's all about. The person that you're interviewing and shining the spotlight on them and getting their story out there.
So particularly in the first few years. When I was establishing my ghostwriting business, I realized, okay, I have to do the same for myself and I have to be brave enough to show up and tell everyone who I am and what I'm capable of and what I've achieved. And, that, that was a big thing that's a big lesson in self belief and putting yourself out there, which can be scary, but I think because I have done that consistently for What are we now?
Six or seven, six years. My math is terrible. This is why I work in words. But since 2017 um, I've been doing that consistently and it's just it's seen the reach of who I can attract to me, my, my like people [00:14:00] really grow. I'm based in Australia. If you couldn't tell from my accent already but I yeah I've expanded far beyond my region.
I'm reaching all the States of Australia. I've had clients in New Zealand. I'm starting to have conversations with people in the U S. And that's just happened organically because yeah, I haven't relied on an agency to get out there. And I think, I don't know if different things work for different people.
So I'm not going to say it's right or wrong to use an agency or to go on your own. But I've just found, I like to be able to work directly with my clients and, lay, lay that relationship foundation directly with them. But if you need to use an agency to get started, then you can always, use that to get your reach and grow your profile until you feel comfortable enough to go out on your own.
Yeah, I have one of my clients, she is also a professional ghostwriter. And she wrote a couple of[00:15:00] books also for agencies and that's what's good for her as well. Like she can go out, like she has that kind of like expert status now. Like she knows what she's doing, but obviously she's sad. Like it's the same with me going just from freelance writing into coaching.
Like you have to then show yourself. You have to show up. You have to show yourself as an expert. You have to market yourself. And especially as a writer, for some writers that's like. Quite a thing because if you're like more of an introvert, and you have to get out there, like it's something definitely you have to get used to.
It's worth it as well, but obviously it's a journey, right? Absolutely. And I find that with the authors that I work with as well. Yeah, some, you always have a mixed bag. Some of them are like, yeah, I wanna be on Oprah and they're all over it, get me on Oprah's book club.
And then there's others that are like, I really just wanna tell my story. And then when we talk about marketing, they're like, oh no, I don't wanna do that, . Exactly. But it's so important [00:16:00] for all elements. to, yeah, you don't want to be the best kept secret whether you're an author or whether you're writing for authors.
You want, as many people as possible to know, how you can help them. And I think that's what helped me too, is that I wasn't. I wasn't coming out going, Hey, look at me. Like it wasn't from an ego point of view. It was, I have the skills to be able to help you to achieve your dream.
And I think once I thought about it that way, it really helped me to, yeah, to just let go of any thoughts of. Maybe I was being egotistical. Cause I think a lot of women think like that as well. It's Oh no, I can't say that. What will people think of me? The thing about do good things and talk about it.
Yes. Yes. That's right. Yeah. But that's true, but sometimes it can be scary. And if you think about it yes, you are of service, like that you provide a good service for others. And if you wouldn't do it, like you wouldn't give you a gift and you [00:17:00] wouldn't help others. That's just another way of looking at it and, providing value to others as well.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think once I made that little mindset shift, I really, yeah, I was like, yeah, sure. I'll do a Facebook live. I'll chat to this person. I'll go, I'll go on Christina's podcast, I'll do whatever it takes. So yeah, it really just helped to make that shift. So yeah, hopefully anyone listening, if you're feeling in that cycle of, Oh, I don't know about putting myself out there.
Yeah, if you just make that simple little mindset shift, I think it's going to change the way you show up and and also change the the energy of the people who come to you as a result of that too, which is awesome. A hundred percent, because it's what you put out there, what you also get back, and when you believe in yourself that makes all the difference as well.
A hundred percent. So how many books did you write? Do you know? Yeah. It's interesting cause I don't actually, I'm really terrible at bookkeeping and [00:18:00] I don't keep track of things as well as I should. That's why I have an accountant for that. But I would say on average, because I do get asked this question a lot on average I would work on about four to six books a year.
And when I say that I'm not not always writing from scratch. With ghostwriting, I, you never really know what's going to walk through the door. Sometimes I'll have a call from someone going, Hey, I've been thinking about writing a book for, X number of years, haven't had the time.
Can we get started? So it's like a blank canvas. And then I have calls from others who are like, I've been writing this book for X years but I'm stuck here and I can't go any further and I don't know what to do anymore. So we've got some content to work with and we've just got to, maybe restructure it, most likely restructure it and then, and complete it.
So they're always at different stages depending on where the author is at. So when I say four to six books a year, some of them are blank canvases and others are maybe fixing up and completing work that [00:19:00] has already been done. Yeah, so it's not as dramatic as it sounds, but you also have to help them then with the ideas and everything, right?
Yeah, absolutely. I, I am a stickler for foundations. I feel like even as even for myself, when I write every single day and I teach people to write their books as well. So people who want to write and they maybe can't afford a ghostwriter or maybe they feel like they would get more satisfaction out of writing the book.
I teach them how to write as well and foundations and structure are so important. Even though, my brain works in a way that I can take huge amounts of information and. Bring it into a story flow just because that's how my brain works. I will always sit down with a client or with a someone at my workshops and we will work through, what are the components?
What are the flows? What's the theme? Who are we [00:20:00] writing the book for? Who's your ideal reader? All of those things, because once you've got those in place. Basically, the structure writes itself, so you said they're all nonfiction, right? That's correct. Yes. Yes. So all nonfiction. So I've, yeah, we do business style books, self help, how to memoirs, autobiographies.
It is beautiful that I've never ever had two books that have ever been close to being the same, which I love. And you learn a lot too, right? Absolutely. And I think the beautiful thing about that is that, I might be working with a client on a finance book, when I need to learn how to budget properly, or, I'm working with someone on on, meditation and mindfulness when my world is like out of chaos.
And so I feel like, yeah, the universe is bringing me these beautiful clients who need to teach me while I'm helping them as well. So I always learning. Yeah. Okay. That's [00:21:00] amazing. And did you ever have to reject clients? That you said, Hey, I'm, I cannot do it. I'm full or That you had other reasons why you couldn't work with them?
Yeah probably the main reason, and I haven't had to do it often but probably the main reason I've had to maybe suggest to potential clients that they wait a little while. And it's only been because they are still in the midst of what it is that they want to write about. So I've had a client come to me who had just left a 30 year relationship and she wanted to write about, her ex husband and how she changed during the marriage, but she was still very anchored in.
Yeah. And even just listening to her talking, there was blame, there was shame, there was guilt. There was all kinds of emotions buzzing around. And I just, I hate saying to people [00:22:00] that I can't help them at that time, but I felt it was necessary. And I always do that when you're writing from the wound um, instead of the scar.
So when you're writing from the wound, you're still. Experiencing it, like the journey hasn't been completed yet. So I suggested to her, maybe journal these times, get the information, get the emotion down, get what you're feeling, how you're thinking down onto the page. But for now you're writing for yourself.
You're writing to help you process this time and to get through it emotionally. And then when you're writing from the scar, as in, you've healed from that you might've learned some lessons from what you experienced and coming at it from a place of wisdom.
I feel like that's when you're ready to share all of this with the world in a book format. Because there's, when you're writing a book and releasing something, you don't want to leave people in the mud. You don't want [00:23:00] to leave them in that heavy emotion. So while it's really powerful and it definitely connects with readers.
You want to be able to show them, that the completion of the hero's journey, if we put it that way what did you, how did you evolve from that? How, how did you move on? How did you become the next version of yourself following this, this big.
dip in your life this dark night of the soul, if we use those heroes journey terms. So yeah it's how can we show that completion of the journey? So I did have to say to this beautiful lady, write for yourself for now and come back when you're ready. And she's it's been 18 months and we are still in contact.
And and I think she's going to jump in and make the leap this year, which is really exciting. And just, you can just see a whole new energy around her now, like she's ready. So she's not only healed, from that relationship, she's built herself up. She's now looking at a whole new business direction.
This is what we wanted to see, so it's [00:24:00] been beautiful. And likewise, I've also had a gentleman who was going through a court case. And wanted to write about it. And I said the same thing to him. I'm like, look, we can't jump in right now while you're in the thick of it. And gave him the same advice.
Basically that's the only time I've had to it's not a hard no, but it's a not right now. And because I do have a backlog of clients, quite often. People are waiting in a bit of a pipeline, if you like. So I do have clients lined up for most of this year already, which is exciting.
Yes, I do in some forms. In the midst of all of this, I am writing my second and third book in my trilogies. And but I am always writing. So it's either writing for writing those books at the moment writing for my clients or proofreading or reading through drafts.
So my world definitely a hundred percent revolves around what I'm and I'll wake up quite often in the mornings and have flashes of inspiration or, a passage or a paragraph might start to write [00:25:00] itself and I'll be like, okay, that's the project I need to work on today. So yeah it's quite amazing to see what happens when you open yourself up to that creativity.
So yeah, definitely writing every day. That's so great. When you're done with the project, like you hand it over to the client and they. Publish it themselves or do they go to maybe like a company that helps them like self publishing or something, or do you use this journey as well? Yeah, I at the moment I don't offer publishing services, but I have quite an extensive network where I can refer people on depending on what their goals are.
There are some clients who definitely want to seek a traditional publisher. We look at, okay do you need a literary agent, can we write you a pitch submission to, to send through to publishers who are accepting, unsolicited manuscripts because, the number of those getting smaller and [00:26:00] smaller every day.
So what's the best pathway to get you on your way. But I think without a doubt. Probably 97 percent of the people I've worked with have chosen to self publish. And usually that is with the help of Of a hybrid or an independent publisher. So basically that's a publisher that has a team of people who you pay for the services upright.
They publish your book for you, but you own the rights to that. So basically you come out as the publisher but you've had that team of experts who have made sure that your book is professional, that. It looks clean that it will sit on the shelves next to, some of the best of the traditional published books.
So that quality aspect is so important and yeah. And then you have the rights to everything, so you can choose how far you want to take it from there. Seen some amazing successes with some of my [00:27:00] clients. Yeah. And it's just beautiful to see them soar. And I think, the people who take the time and the writers who, you know, if there's other ghostwriters listening or people thinking about ghostwriting taking the time to really work on, what's the core theme, what's the core message, who's the ideal reader.
At the very start of the process of creating this book what it does is it acts as a bit of a marketing blueprint for when the time comes to release the book. They know who their target audience is, they know how to talk to them and because they've worked on that with you, they'll feel confident.
To share that message and know exactly what they want to say. It's it's really beautiful to see that transformation that happens for people when they take the time to do that rather than rushing through just trying to meet some kind of word count and get something out there. Because a lot of people think Oh, I have to get this done by April or whatever, and it just gets rushed and yeah, it's a different outcome then.
[00:28:00] That's right. That's right. And I get asked all the time about AI, and I'm sure you've covered this a lot in your podcast. I just wanted to ask you the same. Yeah. I thought it was coming. But it is an important thing to talk about and I have a very strong stance on that, that cause I have seen, businesses coming out that literally say, generate your book with AI and sell it and you make money and you don't have to do any work. And I'm like, Oh my God, it makes me cringe all the time. Yeah, it's okay, you can publish a book next week and then you get like thousands of, impassive things.
That's right. Yeah. So I do see that and I'm like, okay, sure. There's a market for that. But if your intention is to build a connected, community of readers, if your intention is to establish credibility so that people will, maybe come on and be coached by you or. Learn from you in other ways to expand on the knowledge that you've shared in your book.
I don't feel like [00:29:00] you can achieve that through AI and the way that I explain it to people is, AI generates books. So yes, it can generate content. It's always going to be generic and it's always going to be very surface level. Whereas if you as a writer or you work with a ghostwriter to create rather than generate, you will actually, you'll be able to innately, use your authentic voice and create something that's unique.
And I feel like these, these people who go in thinking I can chuck an AI book up there and make bajillions are probably kidding themselves, first of all, but secondly, they're not going to have that impact. It might make them the sale of the book of five or 10, but those people aren't going to come back.
They're going to realize, oh, this wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And then I'm going to come back. Like I said, brand building and everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's so [00:30:00] important. But like I said there's always going to be a market for both.
There's quick fixes for just about everything in life. But I feel like, yeah, if you really want to make that impact and and build that trust and build that connection with your readers, then yeah, then AI is not the answer. Thank you so much for that. So what would be like the number one advice for someone that's just starting out as a ghostwriter?
Where should they start? So I think just probably getting your mindset right. It's probably the biggest thing. So learning all you can from wherever you can. Christina's podcast is a great source I've heard. But yeah, and just believing that you can do it because that, that probably was the biggest hurdle for me.
If you are just starting out in writing, just making sure that you're writing every single day if it's not professionally yet, then writing for yourself or practicing for [00:31:00] yourself and getting your content out as much as you can. So once, yeah, I think writing is a muscle and the more that you can.
Flex that muscle, build that muscle, make it work for you. The more natural sitting down and getting it to flow and creating content will become. A hundred percent. That's why I, like when I started coaching I have this extensive background in personal development as well. That's I think like mindset is the first thing that we have to work on and a lot of people say, Oh, it's fine.
I'm fine with my mindset, we work on this and that. But actually, it's so important. It's everything changes if you really believe in yourself. And you have someone that, can really teach you and guide you in the right direction, https: otter. ai Yeah, that's what I'm here for, like giving them a shortcut to where they want to be just because I had a lot of experiences, and I put like years and years of [00:32:00] experience in it.
And, just like you, your story is extraordinary because, like you are a professional writer your whole life. And yeah, I think it's really inspiring to that there's not like one formula or one way to do it. It's so many different ways how you can grow it and how you can do it.
Absolutely, and I think it's just important to know what values you have and what's important to you. So yeah, so I, I have had a business coach pretty much since I started freelancing, and so I think people like yourself are so valuable because you can have, you can be the most experienced person in something, or you can have decades of knowledge in something and be more than capable.
But if you don't believe. That you can do it. You're never going to step up to the plate. So I think, the world needs Christina's to be able to remind people of how brilliant they are and what they're actually capable of. And once you connect with that within [00:33:00] yourself, you, I think you just become unstoppable because you're like why wouldn't I?
Try for that client or why wouldn't I give that out of the box project to go because, because I can do it. And it just opens up a whole other world. Yeah. A hundred percent. When I was like in my freelance career, I was then, to I started with the minor projects, but then especially my agencies came and they.
New York was like providing quality and everything. And they said Hey, you try this. Do you want to try that? It's not your area of expertise, but like when you give it a shot and you get out of your comfort zone, you grow and you will always, provide like good work because you're just like dedicated to someone listening to the client.
That's also like the key thing, understanding what they need and give them really what. They need and what they want, yeah, conversation. That's amazing. Yeah, you're very welcome. Really inspiring. I thank you so much for your time. I think we [00:34:00] could chat forever, but we will definitely stay connected.
Yes, absolutely. I've had a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. And yeah, looking forward to seeing what your community creates and yeah. And thank you for creating this space for writers to get to, learn from others and expand their horizons as well is incredible. So thank you. Thank you. And you. you as well. I will definitely pop your information below and everyone that wants to reach out to you can reach out. Yeah, I would love that and look forward to hearing about all these amazing book visions and things that are going on around the world.
Thank you so much, Roxanne. That was amazing. What an inspiring episode. I learned a lot, and I hope you did, too. So many nuggets of wisdom. For me, I think the key takeaway is really kind of like the client conversation and this, like, honesty. And that's what I have as one of my values as well, which [00:35:00] is so, so important.
Amazing. Kind of like that honesty, like helping other people grow and working, not with everyone, but like really being more selective. So thank you so much. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it. Please leave me a review. I would love that. And if you want to reach out to Roxanne, I pop all of her information below.
Thank you so much for listening to me. If you need anything, you can email me. My email is helloitwithkristina. com. Please also follow me on Instagram for more tips. Thank you.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
